Spey casting comment/question

[Corin4]

Being back out on the river and casting various rods strung with various lines has made me aware of one of my biggest faults/issue/problem when casting. (except for always having a very high leading hand - mick)

My biggest pondering is the application of power in the forward stroke. "smooth, consistent" are words I keep hearing but when you're casting 40yds++ you have to be putting in a fair bit of efort on the forward stroke, and sometimes it really counter intutive. Less power and effort can make a better cast.

Sometimes my "effort" results in a lovely smooth powerful feeling, and the cast sings. Other times the cast "whips" at the end, and I get the "bloody L", wrinkles and generally a poor looking cast. I'm sure that my forward stroke is the same in each cast but its something else that effects how the end product of the cast turns out.

Anyway my point is ............. I think its the formation of the D- Loop and its character that dictates more about the character of your forward stroke than anything else.

If its well formed and the kinetic energy is heading backwards then great, your forward stroke is counter balanced by energy heading the other direction, if not, and the D- Loop is weak, or poorly anchored, even though you apply the same forward stroke, the result is a weak "whippy" cast as rhe lack of resistance results in you getting through it too quickly..?

So my focus remains on getting the drop right as the most important element of a single spey, off either shoulder, kack handed or not?

If not I'd love to know what others think, as I tend to reduce the spey cast to elements ad practice each bit, rather than the whole. Only stitching them together when right.

Cheers

Corin

[Willie Gunn]

The begining and the end of the cast.
The lift get the lift right and the rest will follow. Just keep the rod loaded with tension the unload the flex of the rod into the forward stroke.

Deveron or Gordon are the boys to keep you right

[fredaevans]

williegunn said:

The beginning and the end of the cast.
The lift get the lift right and the rest will follow. Just keep the rod loaded with tension the unload the flex of the rod into the forward stroke.

Deveron or Gordon are the boys to keep you right

Another vote for Malcolm's comment above. I'll add a couple of other things.

"Anyway my point is ............. I think its the formation of the D- Loop and its character that dictates more about the character of your forward stroke than anything else."

Actually not quite, if you're looking for a 'powerful' D-loop it should actually look like the letter 'V.' The puffier the D, the more actual line speed is being lost. A frequent issue I see with a lot of casters is (as WG notes) above is ignoring the importance of the first line lift, THEN and only then, do you do what ever the cast you want.

The continuous rod loading (many casts require you to actually increase 'tip speed' throughout the casting stroke); is one of the primary 'things' that gives you a 'V' rather than a "D" loop. The other 'thing' that improves the loop formation is 'poking a hole in the sky' with your rod tip at the rearward end of your set. This allows far more room under the rod tip for the loop to form up.

Blood L's are (my experience anyway) are formed by 'improperly' aiming your cast. Think of the rod/line-leader connection as a gun site. You must cast over the line-leader connection to remove the line drag (think bucket) caused by a 'BL.' This may not be where you want to cast, but that's where you have to cast. Want to cast farther up-stream, set your anchor/pick accordingly.

Last I'd say is the functions of one handed and 2 handed casting are far more alike than divergent. Think "1-2-3" as you execute your cast. "1" is the lift (and NO you can not do a 1.5 - very common error - and you WILL love the Bloody L's this sets up for you), "2" is the formation of what ever cast you want, "3" is the forward stroke of the rod with a FIRM stop with the rod tip NO LOWER than 10 o'clock. On the rearward part of the cast the rod tip will stop at 2 o'clock ... both just like a 1 hander cast.

Why these two numbers? Beyond 2 PM the rod has completely unloaded on you. Beyond 10 AM on the forward cast and the rod (again) has completely unloaded. Neither a good thing.

If you want to get your hands on the best book ever done on spey casting 'goggle' Simon Gaulsworth new book on spey casting. It's a true treasure!

All the casts are done in full page colour plates (usually several showing the casts development) with added line drawings showing where the rod tip has been during the cast.

[Sagecaster]

I'll echo what fred has said about getting more power out of a 'V' loop than a 'D' loop.

Also, I find that increasing the pace that you throw line into the V loop helps contribute to adding a little extra 'anchoring' energy to use to pull against. Hence the more energy you have stored within the line at the start of the forward stroke, the less you have to inject into the rod.

Generally speaking I find this technique useful for the longer cast where you are pushing past 30yds, works really well up to and into the 40's.

On the big cast I tend to liken the forward stroke as a punch, as you would an ounce toby off a spinning rod. As ever timing and not the amount of force applied is critical.

[Corin4]

thanks gents! Put theory into practice today. Water was crap so spent day working on my left hand (wrong hand) single spey. Got the 85 Carron singing, though didn't have a tippy enough rod to really get a V loop going. But got 44yds leader to reel.

[fredaevans]

SWEET!!!

If you're pushing out that much line from the 'bad hand,' it's a "You Go Guy" deal. And don't 'rub it in' when you report back on how the other side of the river worked.
;D

[fishingd0]

Read sportfishers (Andrew Toft )input into distance casting. Put in a simplistic manner if there ever was one.

www.speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=15923&highlight=distance

[Willie Gunn]

Corrin Lines and reels arrived today. Thank you very much. A gentleman might tell you that you inadvertantly left a bottle of scotch in the box, me never.

[gob]

I always heard the double spey is the easier of these casts, i find it the most difficult to get right, maybe im leaving too much line out when commencing the cast, my problem seems to be when i am going out of the cross over position the line seems to be difficult to loose the surface tension wheh results in a poor set up for the standard part of the cast i.e. the single spey part. Any advise appreciate
gob

[fredaevans]

Gob, keeping in mind I'm 6,000 some miles away ... this a "SWAG." American for 'sophisticated wild ass guess."

First the single spey is the easier of the two, other being the double spey. The single is a 'lift,' followed by the rod tip back (at about shoulder height), poke a hole in the sky at the end which forms the 'D' loop, forward on a level plane (rod tip) with a firm stop at 10 AM on the clock face.

But back to the double spey (and 6,000 miles of 'swag' here).

I suspect one, or more, of the follow is going on; in order of probability. You, WG noted above, are not actually 'doing the lift' as a separate step in the cast. You're 'doing' a 1.5 which is a 'lift and drag.' This will kill ANY cast right from the get-go.'

Secondly, when you're bringing your rod tip around to set your anchor, then back to form your 'D' loop the rod tip is too high off the water. This allows your rod to completely unload ... not a good thing! Also promotes the "Bloody L" forming.

Last possibility (and it is the last from my personal experience) is 'new casters and when your tired,' forget the importance of moving the rod tip up at the back of the set to allow enough space for the D loop to properly form. All that line has to go somewhere ...

One last observation would be if you're 'pulling your anchor' your swing of the rod tip is just too wide; narrow it up as appropriate for the length of line out on the water.

Thing to keep in mind here is with a 13-6 rod you can actually cut an arc close to 28 feet wide. A 15 foot rod .. tad over 30 foot from straight down to straight up. That's a LOT of line you can work with! Too much 'arc' here and the power of the rod will rip the anchor right out of the water.

Rip the line up as you move back around to set your 'D' loop; you betcha, the anchor set ... not a good thing.

[sportfisher]

Hi Cronin,
Any good spey cast always starts with a long smooth lift.This eliminates any bumps or wrinkles in the line and maintains tension into the D(very important).

Single Spey

The bloody L is caused mainly by inadequate change in direction. Many things can cause this but improper use of the bottom hand to steer the rod tip will give you a straight line pull ie the line comes across not round and in. Upper body movement is also essential to make this smooth.
The formation of the D loop is very important. When you say the D loop is weak and whips at the end the anchor is either misplaced or too short and will exit the water in an upward path. What you need to watch out for is splashdown of your anchor. If any proportion of the line hits the water before the last 8 or 9 ft (ish) and the rest follows there has been a dip in the rod when forming the D. The rod only has to lose height slightly (not dip). A perfect anchor just slides evenly into position and remains under tension. Any splash and the line is trapped and tension is lost. Practise getting the anchor straight into position beside you and think of the path of your rod tip when forming the D/V loop. If it dips a fraction too much the line will follow causing poor anchor and a poorly formed D.
If you are casting 40+ yards you are doing better than most. We are all the same and we all make mistakes now and then. As someone once said to me 'experience is something we gain after we needed it'. Tight lines.

[John Gray]

sportfisher said:

...... As someone once said to me 'experience is something we gain after we needed it'. Tight lines.

...... but if you gain it when you're young, you, unlike us old fogies, can make better use of it...... and it seems you're making quite a good job of it, Andy.....

Welcome to the forum.

[3lbgrayling]

nice to have you on board andy.

jim