PeteH
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Posts: 164
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Post by PeteH on Dec 2, 2004 17:17:10 GMT -5
And most welcome it is too. I take your point about the danger of old skills being lost Airehead, but whilst I can’t see any increase in the handful of fulltime professional builders, I do think that there’s a good chance we’ll see an increase in the number of amateur builders in the UK. What’s happened in recent years with the internet (or is it the web), is a huge sharing of those skills and experiences of bamboo rod making, resulting in an increasing number of hobby builders particularly in the US. I see no reason why that interest should not increase in the UK, especially that there now seems to be more interest in river fishing, where cane can easily compete with carbon in the shorter lengths. Pete
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Post by Lighthouse on Dec 2, 2004 17:49:47 GMT -5
All I wanted in the first place was to see cane building on the discussion board. Well, I got what I wanted. Yep! I'm with you there Airehead! I've always been fascinated by cane and from time to time I've given serious thought to having 'a go'. I've read all the books, done all the research and I'm pretty sure that I have / could learn the skills - space and time are issues - or are they excuses? That's what's good about the forum - it might just push me over the edge. Paul
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Post by The Otter Startler on Dec 3, 2004 0:55:23 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking hard about building a fly rod from scratch ( well cane really ) over the past few years and gone in to it in detail over the last few weeks.
I have looked in to the tools and materials I will need, and the space and time required. I have also considered what level of perfection ( or not ) I would consider myself satisfied at.
I am very pleased to state that due to all this, I can now justify fully to myself the purchase of one of Mr Barders fine sticks. 1400 quid now seems cheap. A few words with the wife and the order will be in I’m certain.
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Post by Airehead on Dec 3, 2004 14:21:14 GMT -5
I am pleased to see this taking a constructive turn, the only problem being that I am typing here when I should be doing other things. However, a few people seem to be ready to jump in to cane building with both feet forward, so I think a word of caution is called for: (whilst recognising that I don't know the status of other members)
1. My doubts about the quality of current supplies of raw cane are not just sour grapes. As I have said, I have not in fact sampled the current supply but there is every probability that it is (compared to 40 years ago) sub-standard. There is a way of building which can overcome the main problem which this would present, but it is not really for beginners. 2. Milling machines are tempting, but please consider that you can not understand the requirements for top quality building until you have learned all that traditional methods demand. To go straight to a milling machine could not possibly give a good result, mainly because you will learn nothing about how cane needs to be handled. 3. For a small supply of GOOD (syn. OLD) cane, try asking some of those few people who offer cane rod renovation in the mags. Some of them have a stock of old cane. (Regret that I no longer have sufficient) 4. There is the possibility of picking up a decent old British-made rod on eBay. Unfortunately, most of the people selling them don't understand enough to give a true description so it is difficult to know what you are getting. DO NOT bid for a Hardy rod. Everyone buying through this route seems to think that Hardy iis the only vintage rod worth having and the price is always high. In fact, Hardy was no better than many other builders, and the rods that they produced with a steel wire core were a positive disaster. 5. Can't give full description of how to build, obviously, but I will mention one practical detail - home production benefits greatly from heat-straightening each of the split strips, after hacking off the soft surplus inner material. This is very labour-intensive and very sweaty, done in front of a gas or electris fire, working along the strip until it becomes almost plastic (one portion at a time). The reason I mention it is that if the cane is badly shaped, this is the only way to improve it. 6. I haven't been able to sample the books mentioned earlier, but the only book I ever needed was 'Rod Building' by D*ck Walker. I still have a copy, rather worn. 7. The accessory which you will have most difficulty in obtaining is good ferrules. There are a couple of English sources, though I don't have them to hand right now. You can buy them from good old USA. If you know someone with a lathe, you could get them made. Corks are difficult, but for a fly rod you can use the ready-made handles. 8. I think it is the small - less than 8' - brook rod that can actually offer advantages in cane as opposed to carbon. However, I must confess that I only came to fly-fishing 4 years ago and most of my rod building was for course fishing. My chub/barbel rod is made to D*ck Walker's MkIV design (carp) and handles those fish very positively.
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Post by Airehead on Dec 3, 2004 14:25:01 GMT -5
Silly me! that should have been 'coarse fishing'
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Chet
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by Chet on Dec 4, 2004 22:17:38 GMT -5
I work with two distinguished rodmakers and weekends will generally find us instructing clients on various aspects of bamboo rod making. I'm far from being an expert but here goes.
The cane we use is hand selected and graded specifically for bamboo rod making. It may not be of pre-embargo quality but it is very good and the consistency of the grade we receive makes it easier to compensate for it's deficiencies.
Power bevelors and tapering machines will not shorten the learning curve for new rodmakers and machines will not teach someone how to make a rod. Machines do not take the place of experience or knowledge but rather build on experience and knowledge and thus create efficiencies for the operator.
Most machine or equipment buyers have made several rods and have a fundamental knowledge of what it takes to make a bamboo rod. Those who come to us with little or no experience are often persuaded to not invest in machines.
Most people new to bamboo rodmaking, are looking to make a few rods for themselves, friends and family and if all goes well eventually sell a few to help offset the cost of equipment, hardware etc.
Our advice to those new to the craft is to spend their time learning how to finish a rod from a blank first; it requires much less investment, it's fun and the profit made from finishing blanks can be invested in future blank making equipment should they want to take it to that step.
Chet
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 5, 2004 17:51:15 GMT -5
Several points on cane that may assist you all. 1)the Golden Age of cane is now,and its happening in the USA. 2)The Golden Age relates to basic materials,workmanship,and finish.The latter still bedevilled by fashion rather than function. 3)American designers were well ahead of UK ones,and still are.Amazingly,the father of American cane ,Hiram Leonard,produced some superb designs,as did the relatively latter day messiah,whose works I rather prefer,Lyle Dickerson. If you could get your hands on one of their better designs,say a Dickerson 8314,you would find it hard to beleive that this is a supposedly outmoded material. You would also have spent about $10,000. 4)The truth of the matter is that there are no bad materials,only bad applications.I would say thay even now we cannot make a fully compettitive cane rod bigger than a 9'#7. Go on! prove me wrong! I would also add that any rod less than an 8'6''#5 is going to be massively better in cane than carbon. 5)Cane is cane it all comes from a little bit of China North of Peking,you buy some,use some,burn the rest. Right now Centrecane will send you a bale of 10 rodmaking culms in 12' lengths for a bit more than £100. The last bale,now in my piggery awaiting a test split,is as good as any I have ever seen.I expect that the selected stuff that Goldenwitch will send you for about fifty bucks a culm from the states in two pieces is better................but it ought to be. 6)you can get all the bits for the rod from Norman Agutters. 7)you will find that making all the kit you need to enable you to make cane rods reasonably quickly is quite fascinating,you will also discover that three years have gone by without you even getting close to making a rod! 8) Pump up things like "Rodmakers",and Hexrod on Google and start from there. 9) It is not difficult,it just takes time to understand whats going on and learn to discard the cloud of ,usually american inspired,total bollocks that surrounds the subject. 10)If you can find a copy of the great Richard Walkers book "Rod Making for Amateurs" you can make entirely adequate rods to a stndard of design which remains unsurpassed. and with little trouble,only don't use triangular formers! Robin
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 5, 2004 18:02:33 GMT -5
Will the prudish idiot who will not let me type the name of one of the most prominent American rodmakers without substituting "Thingy" for half his name,yet allows the word "Bollocks" without a qualm please accept my deep sympathy for his condition and go and commit suicide? Robin
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 5, 2004 18:29:04 GMT -5
The Siesta cork tile company in sunny downtown Croydon are where the cork in the UK comes from,but you can get it in more compact packages from Sparton or Agutter. What you do is buy "Flor" grade (and that IS the correct spelling),and then select from there,you use the best stuff ay the two ends. I really dont think that all the fuss about this is relevent. As far as I can see,manufacturers,even Hardy and Sage use any old crap,so if you use "Flor" it will be fine ,selected or not. Do not use premade handles,it is more difficult to get them to fit tightly all through than it is to do the job properly. For which you do not need a lathe,just some cheap cork on a bit of bamboo and about 4 hours practise. And,whilst I'm at it,the reel needs to be as near your hand as possible,especially on light rods. This does not justify the purchase of a piece of the Forth Bridge masquerading as a fly reel,however much Airflo may/will discount it.The thing also has to be light. In fact,whatever else its not,if its light its ok,particularly when attached to a cane rod. You will find,when you get down to the ridiculous extremes of trying to make a 6'#3..........(No,nor do I...........) that you cannot get the reel near enough to your hand and that they are all too heavy.Even Hardy lightweights,which are normally de-rigeur. The answer,of course is that you put the reel in your pocket. You knew I was going to say that........ Robin
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 5, 2004 18:58:54 GMT -5
The Embargo in question relates to the rather sad american" national" paranoia,in this case about communism. Somehow,not importing Tonkin Cane helped the USA to remain free and,er,not communist. Before you groan,be thankful,you belong to not only one of the few real Nations,but one of the even fewer that was not born yesterday. I am not being at all racist,I am deeply sympathetic to their condition. If not exactly empathetic,since in many cases their plight was avoidable,but in the case of the USA you can't blame them for not being colonised sooner. Anyway,all that aside,it being 00.45,I cant be arsed to go and find out when the embargo started,but it was about 1966,possibly. So,pre-embargo cane is old cane. I do remember seeing culms in those days,although my own came from inside carpets.They were not so good,but very free indeed. Like the ones my local Trago mills sells for a few quid in fact.You waste a lot,but what you use is as good as it would be from any other culm. Unfortunately,if you are beginning,it will be easier to use the much better cane that Centrecane will send you for a tenner a culm. I do not think we should waste time chasing down bits of bamboo that have been in someones loft ten times longer than they spent growing. This is just one of the American bits of hyperbollocks I referred to earlier. R
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 5, 2004 19:11:27 GMT -5
If you have a discreet word with Chapmans of Ware it may well be that a set of cane blanks bearing an uncanny resemblance to the rod you wish to buy from the source you mentioned can be obtained for a fraction of the quoted figure. Or I may just be spreading heretical falsehoods........ R
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Chet
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by Chet on Dec 6, 2004 0:23:44 GMT -5
Several good points, but come on Robin, you know the cloud of which you speak is part of the mystique. Most of the rodmakers I know and work with recognize the same BS and do everything they can to cut through it and make rodmaking simple and more affordable. Most of what I've read on the internet is posted by people who haven't made very many rods.
I wouldn't think it necessary to buy cane from GW, Centrecane looks like they have what anyone would need. One of my customers uses cane that he buys from his local garden center which leaves his blanks a little on the green side even when dry. So much for tradition. The point is if your going to buy cane from an importer make sure you don't get anything too wormy, moldy, checked, burnt, bent or branded.
And if you do end up with some bamboo thats less than perfect don't worry about using two culms of bamboo to make a single rod with a single tip.
The embargo started under Truman in 1950 and continued until 1970. The paranoia started way earlier I believe but didn't really kick in until recently.
I also like Lyle's of Michigan. I recently blanked out an 8015 Guide Special for fishing Steelhead. Most rods I've made are less than 8' with 7'6" 4/ 5 wts making up the majority.
To add to your list of American hyperbollocks;
The proper dip tube for finishing costs $200 and is made of stainless steel. Or you can just brush it on.
Saw this on another site; Are you still looking to fill up time in PA?
Chet
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 6, 2004 17:45:14 GMT -5
Were I alone i shoulod probably make for colorado,or The Fork,or similar,but my wife will think Philadelphia quite far enough to fly.also I wanted to visit Goldenwitch. Apart from pottering about I have no further ideas,any suggestions? Robin
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Robin
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Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 6, 2004 17:51:17 GMT -5
I am sure those dip tubes ,which are just a stainless cylinder,closed at one end and lipped at the other,are made for something else and cost about 5$ each from the source. But where is the source!? I just put a check split in some more of the Centrecane,its really rather good Robin
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Robin
Full Member
Posts: 221
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Post by Robin on Dec 6, 2004 17:52:35 GMT -5
Were I alone i shoulod probably make for colorado,or The Fork,or similar,but my wife will think Philadelphia quite far enough to fly.also I wanted to visit Goldenwitch. Apart from pottering about I have no further ideas,any suggestions? Robin
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