built cane

[Airehead]

Sorry for the nose-in-the-air, folks, but 'rod building' means taking a 2" diam tonkin cane, splitting it, working 6 pieces down to a triangular section with a taper accurate to a few thou, ...etc.

This way, you get to design the action of the rod and it's all yours. The new way is to let someone else design and build the rod, then you stick the bits on.

Anyone out there know how to build real rods?

Well ok, I admit I use a carbon rod much of the time for fly fishing. But I always use my own cane rods for barbel and chub.

[Willie Gunn]

I will manage this is a few years time, at the present time I'm still growing my own bamboo. You surely don't buy your tonkin bamboo from someone else

[jan]

i nick mine from those pandas in the tv adds

;D

[Lighthouse]

I said to Everitt the other day - "Everitt no! You're using somebody else's maths, a lathe and cork from some tree in Portugal. Cut yourself a switch, cut yourself some slack and go fishin' dude!"

[PeteH]

Sorry for the nose-in-the-air, folks, but 'rod building' means taking a 2" diam tonkin cane, splitting it, working 6 pieces down to a triangular section with a taper accurate to a few thou, ...etc.

Not wishing to be too picky but ;D on other rodbuilding forums I've come across the term 'rod builder' has been used to describe someone who assembles a rod from a ready made blank, whilst a 'rod maker' is one who also makes the blank, be it cane or whatever.

Pete

[bloke]

Pete
I would say you have a good point.
Mick

[Airehead]

Thanks, Willie & Jan, for your valuable input. Now, are you going to tell us how to find the best quality horsehair and bone hooks?

PeteH, you are still thinking too modern. Looking down from my shaky pedestal, I refuse to recognise the division.

Actually, I still have a small amount of cane left from a batch I obtained about 50 years ago. It is bone dry and very 'steely'. I note from the internet that the Americans do a lot of cane building, but I suspect - though I don't have the means to confirm - that the quality of the cane they use is probably such that I could grow it myself.

[Gnat]

Airehead said:

I note from the internet that the Americans do a lot of cane building, but I suspect - though I don't have the means to confirm - that the quality of the cane they use is probably such that I could grow it myself.

Airehead,
Don't believe it for a minute - The Americans are way ahead. I would say they are producing better cane rods now, than what was ever built anywhere in the world at any time.
Best,
Gnat.

[PeteH]

PeteH, you are still thinking too modern. Looking down from my shaky pedestal, I refuse to recognise the division.

I’m not suggesting there is a division. I was just responding to your comment that “rod building means taking a 2” diameter tonkin cane etc.” I’ve been ‘building’ rods for nearly 40 years and more recently taken to making cane. They’re just part of the same interest or pastime to me.

I note from the internet that the Americans do a lot of cane building, but I suspect - though I don't have the means to confirm - that the quality of the cane they use is probably such that I could grow it myself.

Relative to the UK , the USA imports far more tonkin cane than we do. Why would you suppose it to be inferior to the stuff we use?

Pete

[Lighthouse]

Airehead said:

I note from the internet that the Americans do a lot of cane building, but I suspect - though I don't have the means to confirm - that the quality of the cane they use is probably such that I could grow it myself.

You're going to take a bit of a battering for this one Airehead!

Our friends across the 'pond' are incredibly turned on to custom rod building both cane and carbon and yes I take your point that by comparison, putting together a carbon rod is more a test of assembly skills than the manual, machining,artisan skills of crafting a cane rod from the raw.
With regard to the quality of cane they use I really don't think our American craftsmen friends are renowned for accepting second best.
If you haven't already read them I would recommend the following;
Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods - Cattanach
The Lovely Reed - Jack Howell
and of course -
A Masters Guide to Building a Bamboo Fly Rod - Garrison / Carmichael.

These books will leave you in no doubt about how the Americans strive to achieve excellence and by way of balance there's also;
The New Advanced Custom Rod Building - Dale P Clemens for the 'assemblers' amongst us.

Generally, American 'custom rods' do not appeal to the European eye because of their style - fancy handles, elaborate whipping styles etc - not the subdued or restrained aesthetic that we associate with UK buiders. However, many US builders are extremely skilled and innovative craftsmen.

Log on to -
www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?f=2&i=118303&t=118303

and see what I mean!

Paul

[Airehead]

This is getting serious! Yes, of course USA imports more tonkin than we do (although they call it 'bamboo') but they don't import more than we did. Gnat, I suspect that you have never seen a good British-made cane rod, or met a good British cane builder. There are some, but they are growing old. (both the rods and the builders)

Lighthouse, I looked at that web site with limited time and I agree those taking part in discussion know what they are talking about, but of course they might not know if the raw material were of lower quality than that which came from China 50 years ago. One thing I know for sure about American builders is that they are very keen on milling machines for shaping the cane strips. Anyone who uses this method does not know what makes top quality built cane, and I can find at least one ageing professional rod builder who agrees with me (I am amateur). However, since I noticed someone on the site warning against removing the outer fibres of the cane, it might be that there are also plenty who know how to plane it to shape.

Another point of which I am pretty sure (if only because thingy Walker told me) is that the supply of suitable quality raw cane had dried up at just about the time that hollow glass fibre came on line. Of course, that does not mean that the USA hasn't resurrected a good supply. A couple of years ago I spent a lot of time mainly on the internet trying to find cane of suitable quality. All I could find that I could be sure of was someone with stock as old as mine. I found that I could have some sent from America but I was unable to verify the quality and on top of that someone warned me off. Judging from the grading system that I found some of the importers applied, it is clear that the quality as received in the USA is very mixed. Anyway, this is all supposition and I did say in the first place that I couldn't confirm it.

One thing I will say - reluctantly - is that as the years pass it becomes more and more the case that if you want to find someone who is willing to upkeep a British tradition, America is the place to look. We are losing our identity over here.

[Airehead]

I did not type 'thingy Walker', I typed the common abbreviation for 'Richard'

[Gnat]

Airehead,
I don't think there's any danger of the debate getting too serious and I think the replies are generally intended to enlighten you to the fact that are cousins in the good ol' USA, do know more than we would like to accredit them. Let's face it, they are without question, producing the best graphite fly rods in the world, it would be quite naive of us to believe they don't know a thing or two about split cane too. It is after all, I believe, without getting into any arguments, the birthplace of the 6 piece split cane rod.
A similar argument is also doing the rounds about spey casting and why the yanks should know nothing of this matter, but the fact remains, they do and in fact are quite proficient at it and God help us if they ever make spey casting competition prizes more generous as I have no doubt it would not be long before you have a stream of yanks claiming the prize.
I have no doubt there are some very good British split cane makers and I regret my statement that the Yanks are way ahead, what I had intended to imply was, as you rightly pointed out, that the Americans are keeping this tradition alive and it is to them we must look for it's lasting salvation.
With all respect,
Gnat.

[PeteH]

Airehead, you may well be right about the quality of cane 50 years ago, I guess the majority of us will never get the opportunity to compare it. Some American rodmakers speak of ‘pre-embargo’ cane being of greater quality compared to that available today. However, we’re stuck with what we can get today and as Lighthouse pointed out , current American rodmakers are unlikely to accept second best.

As for milling versus hand planning, it’s a discussion that comes around regularly, and I’ve never been convinced that one method could be said to be better than the other. Many respected rodbuilders used milling machines or a combination of milling and hand planning. When it comes to actually fishing I doubt if many of us could tell any difference between a hand planned rod and one that had been milled, other parts of the rodbuilding process being equal.

Pete

[Airehead]

All I wanted in the first place was to see cane building on the discussion board. Well, I got what I wanted.

Now, let me tell you a story ...
The year before last, I went to a game and country fair where I watched an interesting display by a bloke with a very large trailer and some amazing trained sheep which took their places on pedestals while he gave a talk on sheep and wool.
Since I worked in textiles, originally trained as a wool dyer, until the industry was allowed to collapse, and have helped to handle sheep since then, I was interested enough to follow him round the back and converse while he was penning the sheep. I was surprised, nay gob-smacked, to find that the bloke was a Kiwi. I have not yet got over the irony of having a visitor from NZ explaining WOOL to Yorkshire people. (He actually shipped the sheep from NZ and did a summer tour round Britain)

The moral of the story is that it only takes the space of one generation for old skills to be lost and worse, for the new generation not even to know that those skills ever existed. We had a highly skilled wool-sorters a few years ago. English wool was unique in the world for its high crimp - unlike Colonial qualities - but now no-one knows how to sort it. No-one even knows what has been lost.

Similarly, we had rod builders who made what was undoubtedly the best built cane in the world, but unless you are over 60 you can't know it. Of course, those building now would not accept any raw cane but the best, whether they are American or any other - but they can only accept the best of what is now available and as PeteH says, it can not now be compared.

As far as milling is concerned, its success, as is also the case for planing to shape, depends on the preparation which precedes the final dimensioning. There is no room here to explain the significant points, but I am sure that the widespread advertisement of milling machines in America will lead a lot of beginners seriously astray. Of course, I am sure that a significant number of them will realise the pitfalls and there is no doubt that there is now more expertise in the USA than here.