Dubbing Loop method inventor??

[halcyon]

An interesting question has come up on another board and it has piqued my interest. In doing some research I have found a reference which suggests the method was invented in "Europe" after WWI. Does anyone have a reference that can pin this down a bit better? Thanks.

Regards,

[halcyon]

Obviously, this method must have been invented by a Yank or there would have been some response by now ;D

Regards,

[RoyChristie]

My library is currently in storage, as I am moving house.
I reckon the dubbing loop has been around a bit longer.
I will check when I get organised. My suspicion is that it was used for building the thorax on a Gold Ribbed Hare's Ear.
Anyone with a copy of Coutrney Williams could check for me.

So, pending reference, that's a potential 'notsofastthere' halcyon...

;D

later,
Roy

[Braveheart]

Sorry Roy there is no direct mention of a dubbing loop in the dictionary of trout flies, however, he (A C Williams) does finish his piece on the GRHE with this........
"Dressed as was the original pattern with a dubbed body and a thorax and hackle of fur" which may be suggestive of a dubbing loop, but since he only mentions picking out the fur in the rest of the passage, I think it's reasonable to assume that he wasn't using a dubbing loop.
There is no mention of a dubbing loop in the "glossary of terms" either.
Whilst I have been unable to find the answer to this question in my limited library, I am confident that it will have been invented this side of the pond ;D Although I wouldn't bet against it not being a British invention either.

[halcyon]

I just knew I could get a rise out of someone with my Yank post ;D

Roy, I will at least call and try very hard to hook up with you when I am in your neck of the woods this coming month.

Regards,

[richardw]

halcyon said:

An interesting question has come up on another board and it has piqued my interest. In doing some research I have found a reference which suggests the method was invented in "Europe" after WWI. Does anyone have a reference that can pin this down a bit better? Thanks.

Regards,

I'm almost sure the method was first invented in Dublin and involved, at first, using doubled thread with a pair of hackle pliers on each loose end. The dubbing was placed between the two threads and then the pliers were spun round each other to make the rope.

It was mentioned in Veniards Fly Dressers Guide but I too am away from my books so cannot look it up.

richard

[Braveheart]

You are almost right Richard.
In the Fly Dressers Guide (4th edition, 1970)
John Veniard has this to say...
HOW TO FORM A DUBBING BODY- SECOND METHOD

Another interesting method, passed on to me by MR J. Harris, the well known Dublin fisherman and entomologist, is as follows-
A pin is fixed securely to the edge of the work bench, and a length of fine wire about 18in.long is twisted round it at its centre so that two equal ends hang down. A pair of hackle pliers are then attached to each end of the wire. The two strands are then given a thin coat of liquid wax. Small quantities of the fur to be used are then dropped on to the waxed wire. When most of the two lengths are covered, the two hackle pliers are spun round each other so that the two strands twist tightly together.
The length of wires may be varied, of course, according to the number of flies being tied. A couple of inches or so are cut off as required, tied in at the tail,and,when wound to the shoulder, give a good dubbing body with the wire rib already incorporated.
This is a good method for tying the “GOLD RIBBED HARES EAR” which requires a hackle of hare’s flax. The longer fibres of the back of the hare should be used for this purpose, as when they are wound they stand out like the fibres of a hackle.

So you were very close, but have perhaps unwittingly provided the answer to another question… who invented the wire dubbing brush.

However fear not the answer may yet be at hand.

This from “FLY TYING PROBLEMS and their answers” Veniard and Downs. (Also 1970)

Among the many very good suggestions given to me by Capt. the Hon. R. Coke is his method of putting on dubbing bodies.
This method is particularly useful for those short-fibred dubbings which do not lend themselves easily to the “spinning” or rolling method I described. The procedure is as follows:
The fly is formed to the stage where the dubbing is required, which would bring the tying silk to the tail usually. At this point another piece of well-waxed tying silk is tied in. Place a portion of the dubbing between the two silks, and then twist them together embracing the dubbing. The silks and dubbing are then wound to form the body, care being taken to see that the silks remain twisted together. Finish off with the original tying silk and cut off the end of the subsidiary piece.

So there we have it, barring further information coming to light, this should put the “yank” upstart in his place ;D

[halcyon]

Braveheart,

Thank you for the information. Can you give me a time frame in which Capt. the Hon. R. Coke would have developed this method? My original reference suggested the dubbing loop was developed after WWI however, I would guess he meant much earlier than 1970

Bill Blades describes pre-making a "dubbing brush" using a loop of silk thread in 1951 and James E. Leisenring did the same in 1941. However, I am interested in finding out when the "dubbing loop" was used directly on the hook shank and not pre-made and attached to the hook shank as a completed unit later. Any assistance would be most appreciated.

The upstart Yank's Dad always said the best way to get a rise from a Brit is tell him a Yank had done it first or better ;D. I see dear old Dad was right ;D.

Thanks for the assistance.
Regards,

[Braveheart]

d**n, you want more
Sorry halcyon, but that's is the only information I could find on the subject, good luck in your search and don't forget to let us know when you find out it wasn't invented your side of the pond ;D

halcyon said:

The upstart Yank's Dad always said the best way to get a rise from a Brit is tell him a Yank had done it first or better ;D. I see dear old Dad was right ;D.

Dear old Dad may have been right about the Brits ;D but I'm not a Brit, I am Scottish ;D ;D